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\u201cI\u2019ve done it for seven years now, and my life has changed quite a lot in the last two years, after I sold my farm, and you have to make choices. I thought seven years is a nice time, and time for somebody else to take over.\u201d<\/p>\n At a time when in Holland it was jumping, jumping and more jumping, what possessed your father to become a dressage rider?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cThe story goes, that after he got married, he didn\u2019t have the money to have horses anymore, then he built up the company, and it was getting better and he went with friends to Aachen. They watched the dressage, they were all old mates from the riding club, and the story goes, he was watching the Grand Prix of Aachen and he said, I can do that as well.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cBut he still didn\u2019t have a horse, so the next year, he went to the stallion show and bought himself a horse, and four or five years later he was riding in Montreal. It was his third Grand Prix in his life.\u201d<\/p>\n Jo Rutten and Banjo, they were 9th individually and in the 7th placed Dutch team at the 1976 Montreal Games… (photo – Jacob Melissen)<\/em><\/p>\n Where did he get his dressage knowledge?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cHe was trained by Ernest van Loon, before he did jumping and eventing and then his trainer was Will Hendrix. For the rest, he was pretty much self-made.\u201d<\/p>\n Jo Rutten and his family in 1975 (photo – Jacob Melissen)<\/em><\/p>\n At first you might say he was before his time, but no, the old riders knew those things\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cOf course, there has always been the controversy between really onto the bit and into the contact, and the ones who were preaching light, on their own feet, and no weight into your hand. That\u2019s as old as the streets of Rome.\u201d<\/p>\n But that can run down another blind alley, the people who are too sensitive to compete, who ride their perfect Grand Prix movements in front to their mirrors at home\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cWhen they are perfect, they can compete!\u201d<\/p>\n But they don\u2019t do they\u2026 and then there\u2019s the French School that talks a lot about lightness but French dressage has not been much of a force since Baucher\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cNot at the moment. I think it is up to the FEI and up to the judges to uphold the rules as described in the FEI rule book, and that also says with a light contact. How light is a light contact? And how do you define contact? I think van Loon really defined it, the horse must have the will to follow the bit, then you have contact as the horse always has the will to follow the bit. You have contact, is that one kilo in your hand or just the weight of the rein, but from the moment the horse wants to follow the bit, you have contact.\u201d<\/p>\n Bert and his Grand Prix stallion, Paganini (one of thirteen Grand Prix competitors trained by Bert – like the contact? (photo – Jacob Melissen)<\/em><\/p>\n It must have been fairly distressing for you then, the era of Sjef Janssen\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cNot really, I always went my own way and that was it. But there again, we start to bash people and I think we have to talk about the medieval system of judging. What Sjef did was rewarded, how can you say he did something wrong?\u201d<\/p>\n They gave Gold after Gold after Gold, but you talk to those same judges now and they say, ‘oh I hated it all’\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cThe criticism came out of the dressage scene itself, and that criticism in my opinion, came mostly for personal gain. Bash someone who is successful and maybe they quit and there is room for somebody else. But there again it is up to the judges, they are the gate-keepers of classical dressage. When they don\u2019t do their job right, who is there to blame?\u201d<\/p>\n I was one of the critics and I had nothing to gain, it just wasn\u2019t pleasant watching Salinero do a test\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cWhatever opinion you have about it, it was rewarded.\u201d<\/p>\n But it wasn\u2019t nice, it wasn\u2019t dressage\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cIt was rewarded. Don\u2019t talk about Salinero, don\u2019t bash people, talk about the system, the system is medieval the only difference is that people submit themselves out of their own freewill and you can\u2019t even appeal against what judges are doing. Now it\u2019s seven judges, more of the same, we have supervising judges, the butcher looking at his own meat, that\u2019s more of the same, and nobody is held accountable for what he is doing. Then you have seven judges and one judge is off, who says that one judge is wrong? Galileo also had a different opinion from the mainstream.\u201d<\/p>\n I think it was at the Herning Euros, and the Swedish judges said that the grey British horse was lame in the passage \u2013 he never judged again \u2013 but he was right\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI don\u2019t know that incident but the point is, you can\u2019t say someone who is off, is wrong, sometimes they are, maybe mostly they are, but it\u2019s pretty weird that basically the mainstream thinking is, he\u2019s off, so he\u2019s wrong.\u201d<\/p>\n Do you think it started when the judges lost leadership, in the past someone like Eric Lette had a view and he could pull the judges together as a team, more recently we had Stephen Clarke who didn\u2019t have that strength of his view and it started to fall apart\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI still think it is the judging system, because these judges are in competition with each other, they don\u2019t want to be that one person that\u2019s off.\u201d<\/p>\n They want to be invited to the next show\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cThat\u2019s a big thing with the FEI, it\u2019s basically a dictatorial regime, you don\u2019t have any choice, it\u2019s the FEI, but the organizers can choose the judges, for Olympics, and Europeans and so on, they invite, but for the rest of the shows it is the organizing committee, they invite judges. And I don\u2019t say it is all political, but it isn\u2019t right. It\u2019s not open, it\u2019s not fair \u2013 when you talk about the sport of dressage, it\u2019s not sport, it\u2019s art<\/strong>. It still gives me goosebumps when it is done right, but sport means \u2018fair game\u2019 and it\u2019s not a fair game. Riders that don\u2019t want to compete here at Aachen because a certain rider will be there, and I don\u2019t want to meet him before the Olympic Games. What\u2019s the reason for that? Because judges are biased, not out of ill-will, it\u2019s unconscious. If you or I are going to sit there we are going to make the same mistakes, so many people have tried it. You can\u2019t tell me, all judges are doing it wrong, they are all trying their best and we should be thankful that they sit there, basically for no money, and at a lot of shows they are treated badly.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cIt\u2019s not the judges, it\u2019s the system.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n But isn\u2019t the problem that the people we would like to see sitting in the judges box, the people who have competed, real horsemen and women, they have so many students and allegiances that they don\u2019t want to judge, so what we get are people who are rich enough to go to all these shows, but not necessarily people with the background and horsemanship we need\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cEven when you would take the people with the background and the horsemanship, I\u2019m convinced that won\u2019t change anything.\u201d<\/p>\n Nothing?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cBecause when you are a judge, the whole world is watching you and you don\u2019t want to be that judge that is totally off, so more-or-less you start to judge what you hope the other judges see. That\u2019s a human thing, it\u2019s the system that ain\u2019t right.\u201d<\/p>\n “There are a lot of examples, and most discussion starts with the placings three, four, five and six, but those riders also have the right to be judged in a fair way. Also the number 20 and 25, have the right to be judged in a fair and transparent way.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cLook at ice skating and gymnastics, they have evolved in their way of judging. One judge for one particular movement, one particular part of the test. Dressage hasn\u2019t tried, a few years ago for a couple of days, but then they say the riders don\u2019t want a change, but that is also the system, of course they don\u2019t want change because they know this system and don\u2019t know how change would work. They know how to play this system, especially the very successful one who have been in the game a long time. But it is wrong for dressage.\u201d<\/p>\n So what would you do if you were suddenly made dictator of the FEI and you could do whatever you like?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI would experiment with one judge judging one part of the test and then for the championships and really important shows, I would have a system when the judges are in doubt, that they\u00a0 could look back at a video, because they have the time since there is only one judge judging that particular part, which is rotating all the time so they don\u2019t judge the same movement at every show. I would go for professional judges on the payroll of the FEI. And they are not allowed to teach, not allowed to deal, that would be the first thing.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cWe are a very professional sport but our judges aren\u2019t. Still we have to be thankful that they want to do it, but they should be professionals in a professional sport, where so much money, so much time, so much emotion, is involved, there should be a professional judging team, especially for the championships and the really important shows. And they would give the example for the lower levels, and to all the countries.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cAnd they have to be consistent. Today we have a horse that is very spectacular, so all the horses have to be spectacular. Tomorrow we have a horse that is really light and really even, and that\u2019s what we want. We have seen the changes over the years, it goes from left to right.\u201d<\/p>\n When you say one judge should judge one part of the test, would that mean one judge for all the trot work, one all the canter\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cIt\u2019s something you have to experiment with, I don\u2019t have immediately the right answer. We have to look at other sports, how do they do it. And make sure you have a system where a rider can appeal against wrong judging, in the same way that the judge can defend himself in that system.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cIt\u2019s not he said, she said, let\u2019s take an example, going behind the vertical, perfect piaffe but the horse is too short, and behind the vertical, you have to take off so many marks, and it doesn\u2019t matter which rider it is, the judge has to take off the marks from the perfect ten. But what you see now is that some riders are judged from zero to ten, and the middle group is judged from seven to ten, that\u2019s a huge difference, sounds the same but it aint.\u201d<\/p>\n Carl and Uthopia – light is right…<\/em><\/p>\n I thought there was a big difference after the Euros in Rotterdam where Carl was first, and Charlotte second, and suddenly there was the emphasis was on harmony and lightness\u2026<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cAbsolutely there is change.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n But do you think it is starting to swing back now?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cIt swings all the time, I\u2019ve been in the game a fairly long time now, and it keeps swinging, and that\u2019s because of the system. Not the judges, not the riders, the system.\u00a0If you are a rider and you are in front, you are not going to criticize the system because that\u2019s how it works. The ones who do criticise and are still active in the sport, then it\u2019s sour grapes and not taken seriously.\u00a0 It stays in a vicious circle where they don\u2019t speak out.\u201d<\/p>\n What I find distressing, is the indications of tension, the most obvious is the swishing tail, and yet I see horses starting to win with an agitated tail. If you were judging and the horse\u2019s tail was going the whole time, would you be marking that down?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI wouldn\u2019t be judging in this system because then I would make the same mistake. When it\u2019s truly spectacular, what are you going to do, with the whole world watching you, are you going to mark them down, yeah you can do that once and they don\u2019t ask you any more, what\u2019s the point.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cBut when the FEI says you have to take off so many points for a swishing tail, then it is clear for everybody.\u201d<\/p>\n Do you like watching tests with agitated tails?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cNo, but not every swishing tail is from tension, it\u2019s the same with a horse that sometimes opens the mouth, it is not always tension. You have to watch the whole picture, you can\u2019t say swishing the tail means the horse is tense. Occasionally the horse swishes the tail, it does that in the stable, it does that in the field, but it is easy to recognize tension.\u201d<\/p>\n It’s a different sort of tail swishing\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cA different sort, but it should be transparent, what to take off., and that should be for every one.\u201d<\/p>\n That would be very interesting\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cBut don\u2019t you think in a modern world, it should be transparent, and yes they give the marks out, you can see the marks and you can see that even though they try to give all the same marks, they differ like you wouldn\u2019t believe, especially at the shows where they don\u2019t know everybody, then they get completely confused.<\/p>\n Of course you see a lot of tests that are of equal quality, then it is really difficult, one judge has 66, one has 68, and the riders complain already. But when it is all that close, then it is difficult, but it doesn\u2019t take away my criticism of the system of judging. And I don\u2019t blame them, they teach, they deal, judges have conflicts of interest all over the world.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cThey should be professionals, especially at the top shows.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n Can we go back to your role as the head of the stallion commission, we\u2019ve been talking a lot over the last couple of days about the issue of shivers, and more and more it seems to me that this is a more serious issue than WFFS ever was. But no-body wants to talk about shivers, but I listen to people who sell a lot of horses, and if that horse develops shivers that hurts because they have to give the money back, and they say the major sources of shivers are Weltmeyer and Jazz\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cWhen somebody shouts something like that, give me the scientific proof of that. It\u2019s easily said, easy to bash a stallion but is that so?\u201d<\/p>\n That hasn\u2019t been your experience?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\n It was easy with WFFS, you could just take a blood test and yes, no, the horse is positive, but there is no test \u2013 yet \u2013 to see if a stallion is a likely cause of shivers. It\u2019s mainly because we\u2019ve done so little research because no-one wants to know about it\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cIn the future you can detect it with DNA, I am almost sure that if we live long enough, we\u2019ll see that, but at the moment I don\u2019t have any proof one way or the other that any stallion produces more shiverers.\u201d<\/p>\n You don\u2019t see a line from Jazz to Don Juan to Don Martillo?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cBut of course, I don\u2019t deal so many horses, but I don\u2019t have any proof that would establish that line. What\u2019s the reason for shivers, is there one reason, or multiple reasons?\u201d<\/p>\n That\u2019s the problem, we have in our bus that has been travelling around on our way to Aachen, one lady she had a racehorse, and raced it three seasons with shivers, and only stopped racing the horse when it became impossible to shoe, but we have another woman on the bus, she imported a mare from Germany to New Zealand, very expensive, and now she is going to have to shoot it because it produces foals with shivers. That\u2019s one of the problems, it\u2019s so random.<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cAnd we don\u2019t know enough about it, at least I don\u2019t know enough about it.\u201d<\/p>\n You don\u2019t come across the problem with your clients, with your horses? <\/em><\/p>\n \u201cOf course we have that problem as well but we have to deal with it.\u201d<\/p>\n But we are not dealing with it, if we ignore it\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cHow do you want to deal with it? If a stallion has it at the 70 day testing, he goes out. Okay when he gets it when he is eleven years old, what can you do? Unless you can prove it, like you can with WFFS, what do you do?\u201d<\/p>\n When someone who deals a lot of horses tells me that 50% of the progeny that they have bought, by a particular stallion, have developed shivers, that\u2019s not significant?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cEvery disease in horses that you encounter, you have to take seriously, but how serious is it as long as there is no scientific research and proof. It\u2019s the same for example with kissing spines. How many horses have kissing spines, how many suffer problems from that kissing spine? We know a bit, but we don\u2019t know the whole story yet. It\u2019s easy to shout something.\u201d<\/p>\n It’s not easy to shout in this case, because the people who have talked about this immediately say, this is off the record. It\u2019s not easy to shout, that\u2019s the problem because it\u2019s dangerous to shout about it, because there are a lot of vested interests in keeping quiet about it\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cWe know the problem of shivers, that\u2019s for sure, but can you say it\u2019s one line more than the other, no. Not proven. You can have a feeling, that\u2019s all.\u201d<\/p>\n Look back at the issue of OCD, and there was a time when people were saying, oh it\u2019s all because you are feeding the horse the wrong diet, finally it was proven it was hereditary with the KWPN in the lead on this issue and stallions were tested and rated, and the problem is now under control\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI think the hereditary factor is something like 0.27, the rest is basically surroundings, but the foal must have the gene too. You can do a lot with the environment, and now you can select stallions that bring the rate down, so OCD is under control, I think the KWPN has done a really good job with the x-rays, but if a stallion is clean and sound, it does not mean he is not producing OCD. The other way around, that he has OCD does not mean he produces more offspring with OCD than the general population.\u201d<\/p>\n While we are on health issues, did WFFS justify the hysteria that was generated around the issue?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI had two stallions that had it, and I have never seen a foal that suffered from it, and not many of my colleagues have seen it either, and lots of vets have never seen it. Maybe these foals are aborted before the foal is fully developed. Then again, I have no proof, I am shouting something I can\u2019t prove, but that is my gut feeling.\u201d<\/p>\n The Hanoverian Verband looked at the foal record of stallions they knew had it, like Don Frederico, and they didn\u2019t find a big difference from stallions without the gene, one scientific study found the difference was only 3%, not a big number…<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cThat\u2019s because only 25% actually get it. But now we know that gene exists, if you have a mare with the WFFS gene, breed with it, but please choose a negative stallion, and nowadays there are so many stallions to choose from, that are free of WFFS, with quality. I don\u2019t say, don\u2019t use a stallion that has it, but if I was still a breeder, I wouldn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n You wouldn\u2019t have bred to Apache, I thought he was a super horse\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cNo, but then I had my own stallion, Havanna, castrated straight away because he was positive.\u201d<\/p>\n Havanna, gelded because he was WFFS positive! (photo – Jacob Melissen)<\/em><\/p>\n Can we talk a little about Ferro and Jazz. In your seven years on the Commission, you have seen the dynasties of these two great stallions\u2026 What did Ferro bring to the breed?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cReally strong hind leg, good canter.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cJazz made pretty horses with a lot of scope, and big trot.\u201d<\/p>\n But perhaps Ferro has been more successful as a stallion maker?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI don\u2019t have the figures for how many they made, but they were both pretty successful, but they also were used a lot by the breeders, and they also got the better mares, so it\u2019s a little of a self-fulfilling prophecy when they are used a lot with the top mares then you get better offspring, but a lot of stallions in the age of Jazz and Ferro, they didn\u2019t get the chance, so now we will never know how successful they might have been.\u201d<\/p>\n More and more we see young stallions being used over large numbers of mares, then next season that stallion disappears\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI am convinced that in the years to come, mare owners will go more and more to stallions that have competed and performed at Grand Prix level. It\u2019s like that in jumping, and I know it\u2019s like Utopia, but my ideal would be the mare and the stallion at Grand Prix level. When you want to breed for the highest level that would be, the ideal world.\u201d<\/p>\n But so many people are breeding for the next foal auction\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cI am convinced that even for the foal auctions, in the future, that like in jumping, at least the father must have performed. And in jumping, it is not only the stallion, it is also the mare, they are both performers for the ones that bring a lot of money, because as a foal you pay for the gene pool. It will get more and more important, also for the dressage breeders to select a Grand Prix stallion, and really test their mares.\u201d<\/p>\n \u201cIn Holland we make a big leap forward by testing the mares in the IBOP, then you know at least the mare is rideable, but one step further would be the mare goes Grand Prix and then you can see she has a talent for piaffe \/ passage, for the collected work, for the pirouettes, that it comes easy for her, and that in combination with the right stallion, who has also performed, I think we can make a big leap forward.\u201d<\/p>\n And your great leap forward, you are going to be concentrating more on teaching?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cIn the mornings I still want to ride two horses for pleasure and train them a bit, I have one four-year-old, one eleven-yea- old, then I teach.\u201d<\/p>\n And people come to you to train?<\/em><\/p>\n \u201cFrom Spain, Italy and England, they come to my place, from Belgium and Holland. Riding is still my passion.\u201d<\/p>\n <\/p>\n \n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Bert Rutten is an amazing guy, he has so much knowledge in so many areas, dressage training, judging, and breeding dressage horses. This interview is truly brilliant….<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":66863,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"nf_dc_page":"","_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[81,4],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-66854","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-breaking-news","category-dressage"],"acf":[],"post_mailing_queue_ids":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/66854","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=66854"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/66854\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":67698,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/66854\/revisions\/67698"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/66863"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=66854"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=66854"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=66854"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}![\"\"](\"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/KWPNcommission.jpg\")
You are stepping down as Chairman of the KWPN stallion commission, we will miss you at the press conferences\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/www.horsemagazine.com\/thm\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/JM-RuttenJ-Banjo01-1024x660.jpg\")
<\/p>\nWhat school was van Loon drawing on?<\/em><\/h1>\n
\u201cWithout tension, everything without tension. He was without spurs, very light in the hands, and the horse must always have the will to go forward and downward. One of his theories \u2013 and I repeat it today with my students – was, when I bring my hands forward, the horse has to stay where he is, then I have self-carriage. No matter what level of training you are at, when I push, the horse must have the desire to get longer and forward, downward, the desire, by the weight of the contact.\u201d<\/h1>\n
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<\/p>\n\u201cI think the FEI should take their role and be a good parent for everybody, and make changes. \u00a0Then this whole debate about what\u2019s right and what\u2019s wrong, would be over.\u201d<\/h1>\n
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